As a former member of the U.S. Military who fought in and survived a very unpopular war (Vietnam), I read the responses made by Mertsch and others as simple ignorance (of reality) on their part. I can only assume that the reason that topic was locked down was to prevent any SANE response to the issue.

This isn't about politics or 9/11. This is about a man who enlisted in the military for a cause he felt was right and just and who died on the front lines fighting for his beliefs. However, as any military person will tell you who has first-hand experience in combat, in the end he was fighting for the lives of his comrads in arms (the men of his platoon) and NOT out of any sense of patriotism or national pride.

Soldiers become soldiers because they feel a duty to defend their countries (national pride), but then everything changes. They discover that it is their fellow soldiers (the people they fight alongside) that are most important to them and that's exactly what Pat Tillman was fighting for when he died (the lives of his comrads). It is a mentality that only soldiers understand and one that elludes men and women who never find themselves in that same situation. Nevertheless, it is reallity in it's most brutal form.

When a platoon of soldiers is trained to perform in combat situations, they become closer than any brother or sister might ever imagine. When your life depends on the skills of everyone around you (your platoon), you understand that their lives are in your hands as well and your entire outlook on life and death changes (as do your reasons for fighting).

This isn't a video game you turn on and off. This is real life and real death. This isn't a FPS (First Person Shooter) on a screen in front of you that you can type "God" into and win every time. These are real bullets coming at you from every direction and other people tyring to kill you for their own reasons (whatever they may be).

For many, it is an act of pure terror and their responses under these kinds of conditions are completely unpredictable. For most though, it is their training that takes over and their only purpose is to survive (the battle). Some do, some don't, and in the end it is those who live to fight another day who know the true meaning of survival.

I understand that America is hated in many places around the world. However, American soldiers are not to blame. It is the politics of war and the politicians themselves who created that hatred and those soldiers are, believe me, as far removed from those politics as anyone could get. They are in survival mode and simply trying to keep each other alive.

By the way, Mertsch, it wasn't just "a big bulding" that was destroyed in New York. It was two buildings called the "WORLD Trade Center" that was filled with people from all over the world (Germans included). Those two buildings were on U.S. soil but the attack was directed at the WORLD. Not just America.

Later.

You did not understand what I said ...
I am not happy about this incident nor anything else .. I just wanted to point out ... Soooooooooooooooooooooo many ppl. ... you can't even imagine these numbers die in war every year every week even every day
and nobody cares about (except the families of those) ... you do not even know about ... hell the news would take hours if ya want to name all people
but if the one who died is an american or a german ... totally equal
its sooo special ... its sooo dramatic
... who do you think will make it to the news Pat Tillman or any other of the daily victims in war - right
now tell me why is Pat Tillman's story "more worth" ... why should I as an outstanding person be more interested to hear his story then the one of another person ? because he was american or german or whatsoever?

just my 2 cent

Hit the nail right on the head... :hail: Old_Fart

Retracting Statement (Hitler was brought up)

This is IT forum not Political - I thought???

The reason that you hear so much of famous people is because it's someone we all can relate to - remember a month ago an actor was brutally slain by those that do not want the rest of the world to succeed in creating a free and safe Iraq...

I agree a bit about the fact if it were me or my neighbor - NO ONE would know my name or my family in the way the media does with these other famous people, but either way it is a way to place a face on war and to show that even famous people have a heart and the courage to fight for a good cause regardless of their own lives.

I can see where this is discouraging and I see where you are coming from Mertsch but that's just the way it is...

Old_Fart - you say things much better than I ever could and appreciate your statements...

I don't think this is a good forum for a political debate and I also think it's a REALLY bad idea to bring Hitler into the discussion. I think even Mertsch would agree on that point.

This really is NOT about politics. One (of MANY) soldiers got killed in Iraq. That one particular soldier just happened to be an ex-football player who was thought rather highly of in this country ... NOT because he was an ex-football player but because he had strong beliefs and was not afraid to stand up for them (by joining the military). His brother joined right along with him as well, by the way. Our news media latched onto his story because of his notoriety, obviously. Football is THE biggest sport in this country so it's not surprising.

And speaking of Germans and Germany, if you do some research into American history (which I've done a LOT of), you'll discover that the battle against the British at Valley Forge (during the American Revolution) was won for a reason that VERY few Americans even know about. That battle was the turning point in our revolution and if our army had been defeated, we would now probably be under British rule. So what happened at Valley Forge?

George Washington (the "father" of our country, as they say) was sent a Prussian (German) combat officer that Thomas Jefferson had a hand in recruiting. At that time (in world history), the Prussian army was considered to be THE best fighting, trained and equipped army on the planet. Their training and the equipment were second to none and NO ONE screwed with them.

This Prussian Captain was sent to General Washington along with a letter of introduction telling him to use this guy to train our troops. Washington was a terrible general and was very close to being replaced, having lost his first 3 battles against the British, so he needed all the help he could get.

Being a lousy general but a fairly smart guy, Washington gave the Prussian Captain full rain over his troops and he trained them to the best of his ability. Meanwhile, Washington did his thing and was somehow able to get all the equipment his troops needed (guns, cannons, provisions, etc.) to carry out a full-scale battle against the British.

Before the Prussian Captain showed up, soldiers from Washington's army were deserting at an alarming rate. Washington would send out troops to round them up every couple of weeks and then do nothing to discourage further desertions. After his arrival and being assigned as training officer, the Prussian Captain rounded up and executed a group of deserters ... and guess what? The desertions stopped.

That winter at Valley Forge was particularly harsh but the training progressed to the point where by early spring, Washington had an army that was chomping at the bit and ready to take on ANY army. In the mean time, Washington had a double-agent working for him and was writing letters back to Jefferson telling him how great everything was going, that they had ALL the guns and canons they needed to destroy the entire British army and that victory was assured. These letters ended up in the hands of the British general in charge of their army and by the time they positioned themselves around Valley Forge, the British were scared shitless. They screwed up big time by splitting their army and Washington took advantage (and won the battle without difficulty).

That was the turning point in the revolution. If Washington's army had failed to stop them, nothing stood between the British and victory. And why did we win that battle? Because of one highly trained German officer who, after Washington was elected president, stayed on and became a close friend and adviser to Washington. End of history lesson.

The point of all this is simple --- don't put down and entire people or country because of the acts of a single individual (Hitler for example) or small group of individuals that obviously DON'T represent an entire nation. People still to this day talk about the horrors of the 6 million Jews who were killed during World War II while they completely ignore the fact that 14 MILLION Russians were slaughtered by the Germans in just ONE battle (Stalingrad) on Russian soil.

The world and it's people are not so easy to categorize or classify with a single word or sentence. It all boils down to one thing though and whether it's a Jew or an American or German or Russian soldier, dead is dead and there's no way to bring them back. All we can do is learn from our mistakes and try and STOP them from happening again.

One way to do that is to recognize that soldiers are PEOPLE and that when they die, whether German, American or Russian, a little piece of us dies with them.

Later.

1: a very sad thing no matter your point of view, Death is never good
irregardless of the circumstances involved.

2: religion and politics have been responsible for more Death and
suffering than all nartural disasters and disease combined in the
history of the human race. If we have the technology to do things as
complicated as computers, why haven't we evolved emotionally and
learned to get along with others as well???

so, i have to say some small sentences to this theme
i hope u understand what i mean

Why that?...ok, this is a tech-forum, but I think we are adults, we have our own opinion and why not share this/discuss about

VERY RIGHT !
but i think americans , the first thing they think of germans is Hitler
i had some moons ago a nice experience
i played Mohaa in the net and i named me "Dark Biene [Ger]"
maybe an american or englander said to me "Nazipig" !!!
huh

what do we learn of this ?
i think we´ll never learn
people that are BIG persons in the world use their might and rev up
they have to show their power with fighting and the strengh of an army has to be the "highest" the "best" the "winner"
there are so many persons like that and that´s sooo bad

if i see in the TV:
hundreds of ppl of the the army died in bagdhad
and where is G.Bush?
in his little house and he has fun with his family
same in germany
we had a fight in irak or something
and where was our Army-Minister?
in Mallorca to meet his girl-Friend!

and our/your people died in the war while our minister having fun

WOW , THANK YOU !

for this sentence i´ll love you !


btw why was the other thread closed?
and this one not?

The thing that worries me is whether the goals of these wars will be met,

Heard in the UK Press that the British army may have to stay in Iraq for 10 years some government minister mentioned it.

Maybes the Iraq War shouldnt have taking place. In the UK around 85% of the population didnt want us to commit troops to a War that we felt had no purpose. Yes you can say Saddam was a evil murdering scumbag, But what about all the other countries in the world ???.

ATM u have a crisis in Zimbabwe, alot of White Farmers were killed to give the lands back to the coloured's yet the whole world sat back and watched, or just condemmed it.

Iraq, have no WMD left or never had the oppurtunity to use them due to the checks by the Weapons Inspectors, Yet Bush and Blair still insisted that they could and would use them, and then attacked. You could claim that Saddam killed alot of People in Iraq, But the US and The UK have killed a fair few themselves, altho its just colateral damage, sometimes we forget that the Iraqis are people too. Alot of them are/were innocent.

To me it just seems we are being kept in the dark about the real reasons the war in Iraq was started, but im sure the truth will all come out in the end.

Just my 2p worth

Peav

This is probably true for the USA also... People assume that ALL the US said LETS ROLL...

Each and every person DID NOT have a voice in the decision, if they were to ask each and every person for their actual vote when going to war - this war probably would NOT have ever happened including the Vietnam war...

The US is not very well liked throughout the world because everyone assumes we just jump the gun for WAR... This could NOT be further from the truth...

Of course you guys could not understand unless you were born and raised here or living here and we can't know what it is like being in your countries either - the same is true in both directions... I'm not saying you guys as those posting in this thread, I mean the WORLD in general... We get lied to constantly and only see the GOOD by the most part if they would only show EVERYTHING on TV then maybe more people would WAKE UP and realize why some things are done... The US is desensitized to a lot of what goes on in the REAL world and that is the way the politicians and those in high places want it to be...

I agree fully with almost everything said in this thread in many ways of course we ALL are intitled to our own OPINIONS and that is what being FREE is all about - We HERE are truly lucky to be in the countries we are in for this reason and many others :hail:

i didnt make the initial post to say it was bad for a famous american to have died.
i made the post to show that some of us (all peoples all races) are not just on earth to make momey and be famous. pat tillman walked away from 3 million dollars a year to fight for his country.
how many of us would have done the same.
he stands for selflessness in any country.
thanks

Cellar_Dweller: being born in USA gives you the right to bomb any country in the world and declare illegal wars ? just for oil or the dark interests of the zionists who are in Bush's gov. This is really funny. "You need to be born here to understand" I guess.

I find it very interesting that even though all of us here come from vastly different cultures, countries and backgrounds we DO all have common threads between us, things that eclipse politics. The biggest one is intelligence, I think most "regulars" here build and maintain their own computers. We rely on the other members here to share their knowledge freely so ALL of us have a better understanding of something we truly love and also get to enjoy the cumulative knowledge between ourselves. Too bad this doesn't scale-up to a World-wide thing with compassion but human nature is what it is, for better or worse.
Isn't it interesting how we all use most of the same common components in the systems that we build? I think all of us have a lot more in common than we realize. We are family here, with the good and bad that goes with that. Peace to ALL and Happy Computing...

__________________________________________
(my main box at the moment)
Athlon XP 3200+ Barton @ 2400MHz/FSB200@1.79V
Thermaltake Volcano 9+ w/manual control
1536MB Corsair DDR434 2-3-2-5-1T
Asus A7N8X Deluxe 2.0 (1007 BIOS)
Radeon 9800PRO (Cat 4.4)
Audigy 2 Platinum (EAX4 4.43)
2x36GB WD 10,000 rpm Raptors SATA RAID 0
Plextor PlexWriter Premium CD burner
Plextor PX-708A DVD burner
Antec TrueControl 550
21" Sony GDM-F500R CRT (analog)
17" NEC Multisync LCD 1760NX (digital)
Klipsch ProMedia 5.1
MS Internet Keyboard Pro
MS Intellimouse Explorer 3.0
XP Pro Sp1

Maybes the Iraq War shouldnt have taking place. In the UK around 85% of the population didnt want us to commit troops to a War that we felt had no purpose. Yes you can say Saddam was a evil murdering scumbag, But what about all the other countries in the world ???.

maybe?

I didn't see Iraq endangering anything other than Iraqi people who got themselves bombed by us anyway.

I appreciate everything that everyone has contributed to this thread. In many ways, this forum represents what true freedom is all about. The freedom of independent thought and free speech. At least one of you thinks this is a good forum for political debate so I'm going to let loose with both barrels (not to sound TOO American, I hope) ---

American politics --- there are basically 2 political parties in the U.S. --- the Democratic party and the Republican party. The Democrats are considered to be liberals whereas the Republicans are considered to be conservatives. This 2-party system has been the foundation of American politics for about 2 centuries now and although there are many bad things about this system, there are good things as well. The bottom line is that until someone comes up with a better way of doing things, it's what we're stuck with.

The Democrats, being liberally minded, are responsible for most of the socially significant programs our country has adopted (social security, welfare system, programs that fund the needy, etc.). These programs tend to favor government control over personal choice and that "we know better than you do" attitude that a lot of Democrats in office seem to possess. This attitude has led to a philosophy that makes many Americans feel like our government treats us like children and that we are incapable of taking care of ourselves. The more social programs there are, the more dependent upon government the people become (which is exactly what the Democrats want). They want to control our lives because they think they know better (what we need and want) than we do. This philosophy also leads to Socialism (a BAD thing).

Interestingly enough, this philosophy seems on the surface to be about as ANTI-American as you could possibly get but surprisingly, the Democrats have controlled both the Senate and Congress for the better part of the last 100 years or so.

The Republicans are conservative by nature. They believe that NO government (or something close to that) is better than TOO much government so consequently they stay out of the social programs business. Instead, they concentrate on making MONEY (making the rich richer). This also means they are big supporters of our war machine (the military) and funding new war machine technologies. If there's a dollar to be made, you can bet the Republicans are on the payroll.

In the U.S. we have a 2-party system (Democrats and Republicans) and we also have a 2-body governing system (the Senate and the Congress which is also called "The House of Representatives"). The President has veto power over both bodies, by the way. This system is what they refer to as "checks and balances" where BOTH bodies (the Senate and the House of Congress) have to agree on whatever it is they are voting on (new laws, new social programs, going to war, whatever). When they DO agree, they submit whatever bill they are trying to pass (new law or funding for any given project) to the President and he either approves it or vetoes it.

People from the Senate and Congress are elected officials and it is the PEOPLE of this country that elect them (by voting for their candidate). The Congress serves a 2-year term where a seat in the Senate is a 4-year term. Senators and Congressmen are representatives of their home states (California, Washington, Nevada, Colorado, etc.) and the number of Senators and Congressmen is a function of the population of each state (California has the biggest population and as such has the highest number of representatives).

How it is SUPPOSE to work --- these Senators and Congressmen (and some are women) are suppose to represent the WILL OF THE PEOPLE. In reality, they do not (nor do they ever ask for our opinions once they are elected) and this is where our system fails miserably. In MOST cases, it is the "special interest groups" that control how the Congress and Senate votes on issues (new laws, new social programs, funding for war, funding of the military, funding for highway construction, etc.).

Here's an example of what I mean by this --- let's say for the sake of argument that you live in California and that you own a construction company that specializes in building highways. You want to make a LOT of money (for obvious reasons) and to make money, you have to spend money (a basic law of economics). Since our government controls spending on the U.S. Interstate system (the roads and highways that interconnect our states), you approach Senator Bob and Congressmen Jane and ask them to help award your company the contract to build or rebuild one of the major highways in California.

How it REALLY works --- to get Senator Bob and Congressman Jane to lobby (on your behalf) to have the contract awarded to your company, you have to make a rather large "donation" (cash $$$) to their party (whether Democrat or Republican or both) so they can free up the resources they need to help with the lobbying. This word (lobbying) implies that they will stand up in front of Congress and/or the Senate and try and convince the other members of the House and Senate to vote for YOUR company (to get you the contract to build the highway). And so the process continues.

Let's also assume that someone else is in the same business you are in and they want the same contract. I'm sure you can see where all this is going. It all boils down to who makes the biggest "donation". Money talks and the special interest groups that have the most money to contribute, THEY are the ones who control the basic direction of this country.

Now ... take it one step further. Let's say you own a company that manufacturers bombs, guns and ammunition. Obviously this country can't be at war ALL the time and when we're not fighting somewhere, we're not dropping bombs, we're not shooting rifles and expending ammunition (which means we're not killing anyone). Since we're not expending any war related items (bombs, guns, ammunition, etc.), our military doesn't need to replenish those items they are not expending. If you're in the business of manufacturing those items and your biggest customer (the U.S. Military) stops buying your products, what do you do now? Lobby for a war? Maybe. Maybe not. Let's look at this another way.

OIL --- the life-blood of our world. EVERYTHING (at least until Hydrogen cells become a reality) is fueled by oil. Oil by-products are also a huge business but predominantly, oil is the fuel that powers our trains, ships, the trucking industry, cars and airplanes (everything that moves on the planet). It is what takes us around our planet and without it we'd still be dependent on the wind (sailing ships) and horses to get around. As the population of our planet increases, more people are buying and driving cars. More products are being manufactured for those people as well and the only way to get those products to the people is via trains, trucks, ships and airplanes (which means more oil/fuel is expended).

Now, let's take this to it's ultimate conclusion --- you're the owner of a very large oil company with rights to oil reserves all over the planet. You want to make a LOT of money (for obvious reasons) which means you need to buy crude oil (what comes right out of the ground) as cheaply as possible (lower the cost you pay for crude oil and you increase your profits). You know there is a very large oil reserve in a certain country that is controlled by a dictator and you want your government to intervene on your behalf so you can gain access to those reserves. What do you do?

Remember --- we're talking about America and our 2-party system (read above to see how our system REALLY works). THIS is the reality of American politics and how our "system" works. When you come to the same conclusions that others have come to, can you begin to understand why the average American is so totally disillusioned by our government and why we have NO faith in our system of governing? It's all about money and it's all about oil.

When you lose faith in something (no longer believe in it), you become apathetic toward whatever it is you've lost faith in and you stop caring. That's what has happened in this country. Nobody cares. They're too wrapped up in their own day-to-day lives to even begin to see the BIG picture and why so many people in other countries hate America. The people of this country are so obsessed with greed, football on their big-screen TVs and the cars they drive that they can't begin to even consider what the impact of the policies our government adopts might be having on the rest of the world. We Americans are the social ostriches of the world, our heads stuck in the sand and our fingers in our ears.

We have given up on our system (our government) because we see all too clearly that our government is controlled by special interest groups and we (as individuals) don't have a snowball's chance in hell of competing with those groups. Money is power and power rules the world. The more money you have, the more power you possess and can wield. It's that simple.

Want to know what the saddest part of all this is? If you read all of the above information and can grasp what it is I've written here, you'll know and understand more about our system of governing here in the U.S. than the vast majority of Americans know and understand. Why? Because our education system is just as big a failure as our system of governing. We're the wealthiest AND dumbest country in the world. Pretty pathetic, don't you think?

There is one very GOOD thing about this country though (from the standpoint of individual freedoms). I can walk out onto ANY street corner in any town or city anywhere in this country and tell anyone who will listen the exact same thing I just wrote above ... and NOT get thrown in jail for doing so. That's called Freedom of Speech and is one of the things this country was founded on. I guess it's better than nothing.

Later.

The reason you are hearing so much about a Pat Tillman not so much about the other brave men and women is because This was a man that had it all in life he could have easily just played football and lived a very comfortable life. But he didnt he made the ultimate sacrifice and chose to fight for this great freedom that everyone enjoys so much. While all people who join the armed forces make sacrifices whether it be time away from family or other things this was just another example of someone who gave up everything in order to do something that he felt is right. Someone in the public eye. Like Old Fart explained in the end you dont find yourself fighting for your country or the politics of everything, you fight for your fellow soldiers who made the same sacrifices you did. The US will forever be damned for whatever it does. If there is a country under a brutal dictator and we do nothing there is outcry if we do something people protest, we just need to know we cant please everyone.

What makes me sad is the people who say they hate these american soldiers when they have to carry out the orders in the end :/
I still think the president has his head up his behind, but he does what the money-wielders want him to do I suppose (Saudi Arabian royal family, or even Halliburton anyone? )

What I want to know now is, what do all these American and British people have agains the French?