Warp2Search.net » News » May 2003 » ExtremeTech: Round 1

Hehe I find this funny, as Kyle at [H]ardOCP jumps in to defend Nvidia! As most of you know we at Warp2 get nothing from Nvidia, ATI or any other hardware manufacturer.

So I'll say this: if Nvidia, or ATI for that matter, have the fastest graphics card they would be showing you a round up of benchmarks from the latest games. (One thing that bugs me, Mr Games Developer: how about adding some benchmark tools with your games?) And not just 3DMark scores, as they would want to know what you are benchmarking and doing with there cards even before they send them to you for review! Now over to Kyle.

Two days after Extremetech was not given the opportunity to benchmark DOOM3, they come out swinging heavy charges of Nvidia intentionally inflating benchmark scores in 3DMark03. What is interesting here is that Extremetech uses tools not at Nvidia's disposal to uncover the reason behind the score inflations.



These tools are not "given" to Nvidia anymore as they will not pay the tens of thousands of dollars required to be on the "beta program" for 3DMark "membership".

Rancho*: Well I wonder how Beyond3D.com managed to pay the "tens of thousands" to be a beta program member then. But anyway...

ExtremeTech: Round 1

JC Unregistered

#43870 Posted on: 05/16/2003 03:13 PM Now this is getting interesting, seem that those who cliamed this could NVidia's end might have been digging their ownd graves, as certainly if this is all cleared up, some sites here mentioned will lose all their credibility!! Wel well Mr.NewsFactory, I use to dish a lot on your news posting style..but this is very good, so as easy I as badmouth I will say you have improuved quite a lot and this is trully deserving a good read!

hinkle Unregistered

#43871 Posted on: 05/16/2003 03:31 PM this is very unfortunate for ExtremeTech. I did not thought that such an acclaimed and professional website would dare to make such major accusations without real backup. The reason for the 3dmark03 glitch could be anything. Actually the whole thing make no sense whatsoever because nvidia had free-moving developper version of 3dmark03 when they were still a member of the 3dmark betateam. They knew that you could move freely around in the benchmark. Why should they have done this deliberately?

digitalwanderer Junior Member Posts: 3 Joined: 2004-02-22

#43872 Posted on: 05/16/2003 03:34 PM I got into a bit of an argument with Kyle over this one the other day due to a misunderstanding on my part. Kyle is NOT saying that nVidia didn't cheat, it's just his view that nVidia's cheating on that benchmark is a form of clever optimization for it...which I can't disagree with since it is. The point we DO differ on is the reasons behind it. He's taking the laid back high-road with a "wait-n-see what nVidia has to say about it" attitude where as I (and a few others) have looked at the evidence and already condemed nVidia for the lying, cheating s***** that they are. But I do believe that Kyle is sincere in his beliefs on this one, and I do NOT think he's defending nVidia so much as not rushing to cast judgement on their reasons for the "optimizations" Not being as restricted in me own opinion, I have real trouble seeing as how deliberately short-cutting the intent of a benchmark to sell video cards can be viewed like that. I'm NOT in agreement with him on this one, but I do respect his position on it. Kyle's alright, he's just waiting for more evidence before making any decisions/casting any aspertions....me I'll round up a posse and light the torches to go march on the monster's castle!

digitalwanderer Junior Member Posts: 3 Joined: 2004-02-22

#43873 Posted on: 05/16/2003 03:36 PM The ability to free roam in that benchmark became available in a beta-build AFTER nVidia decided that 3dm2k3 was a waste of time/money and they weren't going to optimize for it. I can't argue with you that nVidia pulled a real boner on this one, but they REALLY DID! :lol:

hinkle Unregistered

#43877 Posted on: 05/16/2003 03:56 PM do you any backup for this "beta-build AFTER nVidia decided that 3dm2k3..."? Or is this just as you want it to be?

Thebratboy Unregistered

#43878 Posted on: 05/16/2003 04:09 PM Im with Kyle on this one. Maybe they did and maybe they didnt but at least allow then a chance to respond before you condem. In USA we convicted one man in media for kidnapping, he dies in jail WITHOUT a trial, then we find out it was someone else who had the girl all along. We invaded Iraq because, among other things, they had WOMD (where are they?) think in general we as a whole rush to judgments way too fast these days. Does sort of sound like ET might have been doing this a bit as a payback as well so now, at least to me, the whole thing is suspect. If it comes out tha Nvidia deliberatly did try to cheat I'll condem them but not without all the facts being in.

BigBerthaEA Unregistered

#43879 Posted on: 05/16/2003 04:23 PM When there is unmitigated PROOF that nVidia actually did what so many have claimed they have done, then I will join in the condemnation of their actions. I have to look at nVidia's "intent" though. "Why" would they do this? They are FULLY aware of the ramifications if indeed they were found to be doing such a thing. I happen to think there are far more questions than facts right now. It bothers me that many people have taken Extreme-Tech's word as "gospel" and have been SO quick to condemn nVidia for something that NONE of us have any facts with which to support such accusations. When the facts are laid out, then we can talk about THE FACTS, not SPECULATION from only ONE website. I will be more than happy to condemn nVidia if they actually are guilty of what they have been accused of. However, there are no substantiating FACTS available at this time, so therefore people can speculate all they want. Until there are concrete FACTS presented, then all of us (including myself) are just wasting our time. Just so nobody piles on with any "fanboy" crap, I own an ATI Radeon 9800 Pro and I am a big fan of BOTH ATI and nVidia.

hinkle Unregistered

#43880 Posted on: 05/16/2003 04:32 PM The fact the 3dmark03 article on extremetech is spreading like wildfire has absolutely nothing to do with ExtremeTech as a website but simply because ATI fans have been waiting desperately since the release of the superior nv35 for something what they can use to bash the competition. That's why it's already sure for ATI users that this a cheat and not some bug which may have slipped through. What a sad, pathetic community this has become... BTW: news are already coming up that the new Catalyst 3.4 also show weird behaviour in 3dmark03...

digitalwanderer Junior Member Posts: 3 Joined: 2004-02-22

#43881 Posted on: 05/16/2003 04:38 PM It's over in the monster thread on nVnews about their cheating and in the ExtremeTech article itself, the tool was released AFTER nVidia dropped out of the 3dm2k3 program. Now I'm not certain that SOMEONE there didn't know of it...in fact I'd be damned surprised if they didn't keep up with those things thru some back-channels, but it looks like they didn't and were caught flat-footed.

digitalwanderer Junior Member Posts: 3 Joined: 2004-02-22

#43883 Posted on: 05/16/2003 04:42 PM Just wanted to hit your "Why would they do this". They'd do it so they could declare themselves the clear-cut winner of the new King-o-viddy card crown to get back their reputation. They based their "win" on 3dm2k3 scores and the Doom3 demo, the 9800 Pro and the 5900 FX are damned close in performance if you disregard those and it's a shooting match. nVidia was pushing those two as their "big win"....and now it's blowing up in their faces. The sad thing is the 5900 FX is a really nice card that can stand up to the 9800 Pro and didn't NEED any cheating to be an Uber-leet card...and this just casts doubts on an already damaged reputation.

BigBerthaEA Unregistered

#43886 Posted on: 05/16/2003 04:56 PM Sorry, I disagree with your "Oliver Stone" take on this whole thing. I think nVidia is a helluva lot sharper than what you give them credit for and I am quite sure that their "intentions" were not what they are being accused of. Keep in mind, ATI, not nVidia has MY hard earned dollars. However, unlike you and thousands of others, I have not condemned and crucified nVidia before the facts are presented. IF and WHEN there is proof to back up your accusations, then I will be more than happy to acknowledge that your conspiracy theory is correct. Until that time, this is nothing more than idle speculation and fodder for people who have WAY too much time on their hands.

digitalwanderer Junior Member Posts: 3 Joined: 2004-02-22

#43901 Posted on: 05/16/2003 07:41 PM How can you tell when nVidia is lying? Either their lips move or they issue a press release. You have them on WAY too high of a pedastool friend, they're just out for your money.

BigBerthaEA Unregistered

#43907 Posted on: 05/16/2003 08:26 PM Not even going to justify your response.

BetrayerX Unregistered

#43908 Posted on: 05/16/2003 08:31 PM hmmmmmm lets see... The "bug" just cut EVERYTHING that you dont see on a COMPLETELY RENDERED 3D ENVIRONMENT, cutting the workload in a very big way, rendering the 3DWorld in such a state it's practically a short movie. The Only way to do that is by using Tile Based Rendering technology. Only Power VR has proven to be succesfull using this and yet they are out of the picture. Some mayor players are interested in this technology (Intel, Via, SIS, Nokia), but they have properly licensed it in one way or another. If NVidia was succesfull doing this, I smell lawsut......BUT WAIT, only in 3DMark03 it happens.....ohh God what a coincidence. I should go out now and play the Lotto, with those odds I bet I can win it even if I play the previous winners number. As a matter of fact, the "bug" cuts everything not seen so nicely, that NO ONE would even notice, until that little surprise at ET.

digitalwanderer Junior Member Posts: 3 Joined: 2004-02-22

#43911 Posted on: 05/16/2003 11:00 PM You just did.

chris_exe Unregistered

#43913 Posted on: 05/17/2003 12:39 AM All that really matters to me is this ... cheat or bug Does it increase the FX5900s score ? if yes then its not the card it appears to be is it ?

hinkle Unregistered

#43915 Posted on: 05/17/2003 01:40 AM of course, all that ATI wants is your trust, that's why they will never cheat... they are not interested in money!

chris_exe Unregistered

#43925 Posted on: 05/17/2003 11:44 AM What cat 3.4 behaviour ? i see nothing about it anywhere. Personally i dont care if it is a VERY 'lucky' bug or a cheat it still boosts the performance of the FX5900 and gives a false impression of its speed. The FX just isnt as fast as it appears to be, that is a FACT. As for the FX being superior, that is a matter of opinion. The 9800 has superior image quality in both 2D and 3D. In fact the radeons are now very close to matrox desktop quality and MILES ahead of nvidia. The only thing the NV35 has above the R3XX is that in some games it is faster, in every other way the radeon is superior.

chris_exe Unregistered

#43926 Posted on: 05/17/2003 11:47 AM They dont need to cheat to get my money. Nvidia do, and the act of cheating means they wont get it anyway

BigBerthaEA Unregistered

#43934 Posted on: 05/17/2003 05:22 PM You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but until you can compare both cards side by side using identical system settings, monitors, etc, then it is a moot point. I enjoy my Radeon 9800 Pro, but it is not the "be all, end all" in today's market place. I plan to get a 5900 Ultra and compare them side by side. At the end of the day, I don't think you will find as much difference between the two as you claim. However, it appears that we will likely disagree. I like to keep an open mind about things until I have a reason not to be open minded....

BigBerthaEA Unregistered

#43935 Posted on: 05/17/2003 05:25 PM If you are looking at one benchmark score, then your point may have limited viability. However, the 5900 U performed very well using a number of different games and applications. Between ATI and nVidia, I don't see how any gamer can go wrong....

chris_exe Unregistered

#43937 Posted on: 05/17/2003 05:42 PM I should have stated that i work for a computer component supplier in the UK. I have seen both 9800s and geforce fxs running on the same system, the 9800 is clearly superior in the desktop and just about the same speedwise in games. I still think the radeon looks better in games as well, but it is a subjective thing.

chris_exe Unregistered

#43938 Posted on: 05/17/2003 05:50 PM I agree both cards are great in their own way. The point is nvidia clearly put a lot of emphasis on 3DMark03 and doom 3. The 5900 isnt much quicker in any other situation. It is a worthy replacement for a GF4 ti , but not a radeon 9700, even the non pro. Both cards have their flaws. In the 5900s case it is to hot and to large, IQ isnt the best and its tarnished by nvidias terrible cheating . The 9800 256mb has its overly high price and low clock rate against it.

BigBerthaEA Unregistered

#43939 Posted on: 05/17/2003 06:08 PM " It is a worthy replacement for a GF4 ti , but not a radeon 9700, even the non pro." Well, comments like this end the discussion for me as I am not blinded by blind loyalty to one company that it cause me to make ridiculous comments not supported by facts... Thanks anyway...

BigBerthaEA Unregistered

#43940 Posted on: 05/17/2003 06:09 PM I will wait and see for myself, thanks.

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